Medjugorje seen by John Paul II when he was Pope

Interview with Bishop Pavel Hnilica, an old friend of the Pope, who has lived in Rome since his escape from Slovakia in the 50s. The Bishop was asked if and how the Pope expressed an opinion on Medjugorje. The interview was conducted by Marie Czernin in October 2004.

Bishop Hnilica, you spent a lot of time close to Pope John Paul II and were able to share very personal moments with him. Did you have the opportunity to speak with the Pope about the events in Medjugorje?

When in 1984 I visited the Holy Father in Castel Gandolfo and had lunch with him, I told him about the consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, which I had been able to carry out on March 24 of that same year in a completely unexpected way, in the Cathedral of the Assumption. in the Moscow Kremlin, just as Our Lady asked Fatima. He was very impressed and said: "Our Lady guided you there with Her hand" and I replied: "No, Holy Father, she carried me in her arms!". Then he asked me what I thought of Medjugorje and if I had already been there. I replied: “No. The Vatican did not forbid it to me, but it advised against it ”. At which the Pope looked at me with a resolute gaze and said: “Go incognito to Medjugorje, just as you went to Moscow. Who can forbid you? ". In this way the Pope had not officially allowed me to go there, but he had found a solution. Then the Pope went to his study and took a book on Medjugorje by René Laurentin. He began to read me a few pages and pointed out to me that the messages of Medjugorje are related to those of Fatima: "You see, Medjugorje is the continuation of the message of Fatima". I went three or four times incognito to Medjugorje, but then the then Bishop of Mostar-Duvno, Pavao Zanic, wrote me a letter in which he told me not to go to Medjugorje anymore, otherwise he would have written to the Pope. Someone had evidently informed of my stays, but I certainly did not have to be afraid of the Holy Father.

Did you later have another chance to talk about Medjugorje with the Pope?

Yes, the second time we talked about Medjugorje - I remember it well - was on 1 August 1988. A medical commission in Milan, which then examined the visionaries, came to the Pope in Castel Gandolfo. One of the doctors pointed out that the Bishop of the Diocese of Mostar was creating difficulties. Then the Pope said: "Since he is the bishop of the region, you must listen to him" and, immediately becoming serious, he added: "But he will have to give an account before the law of God that he has handled the matter in the right way". The Pope remained thoughtful for a moment and then said: "Today the world is losing the sense of the supernatural, that is, the sense of God. But many find this meaning in Medjugorje through prayer, fasting and the sacraments." It was the most beautiful and explicit testimony for Medjugorje. I was struck by this because the commission that had examined the visionaries then declared: Non constat de supernaturalitate. On the contrary, the Pope had long ago understood that something supernatural was happening in Medjugorje. From the most varied accounts of other people on the events in Medjugorje, the Pope was able to convince himself that God is encountered in this place.

Isn't it possible that much of what happens in Medjugorje was instead invented from scratch and that sooner or later it will turn out that the world has fallen into a big scam?

A few years ago, a great meeting of young people took place in Marienfried to which I was also invited. Then a journalist asked me: "Mr. Bishop, don't you think that everything that happens in Medjugorje originates from the devil?". I replied: “I am a Jesuit. St. Ignatius taught us that we need to distinguish spirits and that every event can have three causes or reasons: human, divine or diabolical ”. In the end he had to agree that everything that happens in Medjugorje cannot be explained from a human point of view, that is, that completely normal young people attract to this place thousands of people who flock here every year to be reconciled with God. Meanwhile Medjugorje is called the confessional of the world: neither in Lourdes nor in Fatima is there the phenomenon of so many people who go to confession. What happens in a confessional? The priest frees sinners from the devil. I then replied to the reporter: “Certainly the devil has managed to do many things, but one thing he certainly cannot do. Can the devil send people to the confessional to free them from himself? " Then the reporter laughed and understood what I meant. The only reason therefore remains God! Later I also reported this conversation to the Holy Father.

How can the Medjugorje message be summed up in a couple of sentences? What distinguishes these messages from those of Lourdes or of Fatima?

In all three of these places of pilgrimage, Our Lady invites to penance, repentance and prayer. In this the messages of the three places of apparition are similar. The difference is that the Medjugorje messages have lasted for 24 years. This intense continuity of supernatural apparitions has not diminished in recent years, so much so that more and more intellectuals are converting to this place.

For some people the messages of Medjugorje are not trustworthy because then the war broke out. So not a place of peace, but of quarrel?

When in 1991 (exactly 10 years after the first message: "Peace, peace and only peace!") War broke out in Bosnia and Herzegovina, I was again having lunch with the Pope and he asked me: "How do you explain the apparitions of Medjugorje , if now there is war in Bosnia? " The war was a really bad thing. So I said to the Pope: “Yet now the same thing is happening that happened at Fatima. If we had then consecrated Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary, the Second World War could have been avoided, as well as the spread of communism and atheism. Just after you, Holy Father, made this consecration in 1984, there were great changes in Russia, through which the fall of communism began. Even in Medjugorje, at the beginning, Our Lady warned that wars would break out if we did not convert, but no one took these messages seriously. This means that if the Bishops of ex-Yugoslavia had taken the messages seriously - naturally they cannot yet grant definitive recognition of the Church, given that the apparitions are still in progress - perhaps it would not have reached this point ". Then the Pope said to me: "So Bishop Hnilica is convinced that my consecration to the Immaculate Heart of Mary was valid?" and I replied: “Certainly it was valid, the point is only how many Bishops have made this consecration in communion (in union) with the Pope”.

Let's go back to Pope John and his special mission again ...

Yes. A few years ago, when the Pope was already in poor health and was starting to walk with his cane, I told him again about Russia during a lunch. Then he leaned on my arm to accompany him to the elevator. She was already very trembling and repeated five times in a solemn voice the words of Our Lady of Fatima: "In the end my Immaculate Heart will triumph". The Pope truly felt that he had this great task for Russia. Even then he stressed that Medjugorje is nothing but the continuation of Fatima and that we must rediscover the meaning of Fatima. Our Lady wants to educate us in prayer, penance and greater faith. It is understandable for a mother to worry about her children who are in danger, and so does Our Lady in Medjugorje. I also explained to the Pope that today the greatest Marian movement starts from Medjugorje. Everywhere there are prayer groups that come together in the spirit of Medjugorje. And he confirmed it. Because there are fewer holy families. Marriage is also a great vocation.

Some are surprised that none of the Medjugorje visionaries, once they grew up, entered a convent or became a priest. Can this fact be interpreted as a sign of our time?

Yes, I see it in a very positive way, because we can see that these men whom Our Lady has chosen are simple instruments of God. They are not the authors who have devised everything, but they are collaborators of a larger divine project. By themselves they would not have the strength. Today it is particularly necessary that the life of the laity be renewed. For example, there are also families who live this consecration to Our Lady, not just nuns or priests. God gives us freedom. Today we must give witness to the world: perhaps in the past such clear testimonies were found mostly in convents, but today we need these signs in the world as well. Now it is above all the family that has to renew itself, since the family today finds itself in a profound crisis. We may not know all of God's plans, but surely today we must sanctify the family. Why are there fewer vocations?